Comments on: The Rise and Fall of a Testimony http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/ A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: The 2009 Brodie Winners Are… | Main Street Plaza http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-73354 The 2009 Brodie Winners Are… | Main Street Plaza Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:01:20 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-73354 [...] Exit Story goes to Leah for The Rise and Fall of a [...] [...] Exit Story goes to Leah for The Rise and Fall of a [...]

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]]> By: Jason Schoenack http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-73346 Jason Schoenack Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:48:25 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-73346 I read this a while back and it is a supurb piece that makes you laugh, makes you shake your head, and makes you mad at what the church and religion do, and have done, to those who want to be good and are looking for meaning. A sad but inspirational story, thanks! I read this a while back and it is a supurb piece that makes you laugh, makes you shake your head, and makes you mad at what the church and religion do, and have done, to those who want to be good and are looking for meaning. A sad but inspirational story, thanks!

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]]> By: The Rise and Fall of a Testimony | Main Street Plaza - JacobMcDonald.net v6.0 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72858 The Rise and Fall of a Testimony | Main Street Plaza - JacobMcDonald.net v6.0 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:19:22 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72858 [...] The Rise and Fall of a Testimony | Main Street Plaza. Posted by zaphod Comments RSS [...] [...] The Rise and Fall of a Testimony | Main Street Plaza. Posted by zaphod Comments RSS [...]

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]]> By: Civil discourse and our goals at Main Street Plaza | Main Street Plaza http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72716 Civil discourse and our goals at Main Street Plaza | Main Street Plaza Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:10:29 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72716 [...] was quite pleased to see that we got some very thoughtful, civil responses to a civil dissenting comment the other day. So, from my perspective, it looks like things are [...] [...] was quite pleased to see that we got some very thoughtful, civil responses to a civil dissenting comment the other day. So, from my perspective, it looks like things are [...]

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]]> By: Hellmut http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72475 Hellmut Fri, 08 Jan 2010 03:03:39 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72475 Religion is a matter of conscience. Unfortunately, that is hard to understand for believing Mormons like Jeremy. The reason is that Mormons do not believe but "know." If you can know then everyone can know and therefore no one can legitimately disagree with you about religion. That is why Mormonism is so intolerant of outsiders, at least, when there is no hope of conversion. If you are willfully gentile then there must be something wrong with you. Religion is a matter of conscience. Unfortunately, that is hard to understand for believing Mormons like Jeremy. The reason is that Mormons do not believe but “know.”

If you can know then everyone can know and therefore no one can legitimately disagree with you about religion.

That is why Mormonism is so intolerant of outsiders, at least, when there is no hope of conversion. If you are willfully gentile then there must be something wrong with you.

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]]> By: Craig http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72470 Craig Thu, 07 Jan 2010 19:26:48 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72470 I can't even say how often I've heard that from my family/former friends who are still in the church. When I told my parents that I was leaving the church, the first thing they asked me was "are you doing it just so you can live the 'homosexual lifestyle'", as if not believing in the church wasn't enough, or as if I was just doing it to sin. They told me they could never accept that I was truly happy, and that what I was doing was right for me. Soon thereafter, one of my uncles started leaving "anonymous" (I traced the IP address) comments on my blog telling me that he "knew" that I still had a testimony and that I still really knew, deep down what was right (the church) and that I was lying when I said I was a gay atheist. I've found that at least for now, there is nothing I can do or say to convince them that I've living my life authentically. For them, there is only one way to live correctly, and if you deviate from that even a little, then you're wrong, eternally and completely WRONG! The inherent hypocrisy in Jeremy's comment (and in my family's behaviour) is what is so frustrating. They expect us to do what they're not willing to ever do: consider that we're wrong, especially when we've already done that and found out that yes, we were wrong. Unfettered thought is indeed a wonderful thing. Knowing that there is no right answer, least of all only one is wonderfully liberating (if a bit scary at times). I can’t even say how often I’ve heard that from my family/former friends who are still in the church. When I told my parents that I was leaving the church, the first thing they asked me was “are you doing it just so you can live the ‘homosexual lifestyle’”, as if not believing in the church wasn’t enough, or as if I was just doing it to sin. They told me they could never accept that I was truly happy, and that what I was doing was right for me.

Soon thereafter, one of my uncles started leaving “anonymous” (I traced the IP address) comments on my blog telling me that he “knew” that I still had a testimony and that I still really knew, deep down what was right (the church) and that I was lying when I said I was a gay atheist.

I’ve found that at least for now, there is nothing I can do or say to convince them that I’ve living my life authentically. For them, there is only one way to live correctly, and if you deviate from that even a little, then you’re wrong, eternally and completely WRONG!

The inherent hypocrisy in Jeremy’s comment (and in my family’s behaviour) is what is so frustrating. They expect us to do what they’re not willing to ever do: consider that we’re wrong, especially when we’ve already done that and found out that yes, we were wrong.

Unfettered thought is indeed a wonderful thing. Knowing that there is no right answer, least of all only one is wonderfully liberating (if a bit scary at times).

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]]> By: Kevin http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72439 Kevin Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:48:23 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72439 Jeremy, I was incredibly offended at your comment, “The dead end road you’re on is easier, I’ll grant you that, but it’s short and not going anywhere.” It insulted the personal growth I’ve experienced over the last couple of years. Yes, I too have listened with tears rolling down my eyes to Jeffrey R. Holland’s flowery prose and emphatic diction as he spoke of the infinite worth of the atonement, and how receipt of such a gift was not meant to be easy. As such, I understand where you are coming from. It is rough to be a practicing LDS member. Everyone mocks you, you can’t participate in certain activities that society deems normal, and you have to participate in other activities that others find ludicrous. Trust me, the 2 years that I spent knocking on doors, telling intelligent people 3 times my age that what they believed was misguided and just plain wrong, was anything but easy. But, I would submit that strict adherence to any lifestyle that separates you from your peers is just as difficult. I find it hard to believe that Orthodox Jews, Buddhist Monks or the Amish etc. have it any easier because they aren’t striving to receive “his atoning grace.” (or at least his “correct” atoning grace.) Jeremy, the most difficult ordeal that I endured was losing my faith. While most people I talk to who have abandoned Mormonism or any other system of belief found that it cured, or at least reduced their depression, I found that it exacerbated mine. The most profound and difficult questions we have to answer in this life are the very questions religion purports to answer. As long as these answers are in place, we are free to pursue our daily routines and focus our attention to the more mundane and common questions. I was raised Mormon and, for as long as I can remember, have been fascinated with the transcendent. I faked sick during a 5th grade test because rather than concentrating on the questions, I was tortured, trying to hide my tears as I struggled to define the initial spark that caused existence. That’s just one of many examples. This obsession led me to read everything I could on Mormonism. If it was written by Talmage, Widtsoe, Joseph Smith, F. Smith, Fielding Smith, Madsen, Skousen etc., I read it and believed it. The more I read and understood, the more comfort I received knowing that when death came, I’d at least know what was up. With such a myopic point of view, Mormonism formed the framework of my existence. Every piece of information I received was filed away according to the mental structure, or “filing system.” I had built using Mormon teachings. Now, I won’t go into too much detail concerning my “deconversion,” except to explain that it had nothing to do with “anti-mormon” literature or any offense taken from church authorities. It was more of a result of my continuing honest and sincere search for truth. Now, imagine my horror when I had to confront the possibility that I might be wrong, that all my mental files were out of place and the great questions in life were still unanswered. We humans have an inborn fear of the unknown, and as intelligent and well read as I thought I was, I realized I would face with the greatest unknown completely unprepared. Everything I thought I knew was out of place. I frantically tried to come up with a new worldview to provide the same comfort I felt when I “knew” the “gospel” was beyond reproach. Even a fraction of that comfort would have been sufficient, but it never came. I was faced with the most humiliating prospect of all, that I didn’t know, and that I would never know. Those realizations are not easy. The Mormon road was a lot easier. On top of the unfortunate smug, and inquisitive personality expressed in this comment, I’m also very light-hearted and charismatic in social situations, if I do say so myself. ? Such a personality afforded me countless opportunity to indulge in every “sin” imaginable. I almost always took advantage. Most of these “sins” were committed while I believed. Even with the supposed realization that my actions would have eternal consequences, at least I knew what was coming. Never, through all these sins did I ever feel the amount of despair I felt when I had to battle my doubts. When something so important and pervasive is torn away, the consequences are traumatic. And as far as the road being “short” or a “dead end” is concerned, the disintegration of my faith began when I discovered the Mormon road had in fact led me to an intellectual dead end. Once I reached that dead end, I explored other avenues to obtain knowledge and truth. I had to do a bit of mental gymnastics to reconcile my new evidence-based information with my faith-based beliefs but I had years of practice so I did alright. When I finally realized that I didn’t have to let my faith stand in the way of logic and reason, I found that my options became unlimited. I could take things for what they are rather than change the evidence to suit my beliefs. I can now pursue truth everywhere, not just in Mormon sanctioned sources. Jeremy, this road is endless. Jeremy, I was incredibly offended at your comment, “The dead end road you’re on is easier, I’ll grant you that, but it’s short and not going anywhere.” It insulted the personal growth I’ve experienced over the last couple of years. Yes, I too have listened with tears rolling down my eyes to Jeffrey R. Holland’s flowery prose and emphatic diction as he spoke of the infinite worth of the atonement, and how receipt of such a gift was not meant to be easy. As such, I understand where you are coming from. It is rough to be a practicing LDS member. Everyone mocks you, you can’t participate in certain activities that society deems normal, and you have to participate in other activities that others find ludicrous. Trust me, the 2 years that I spent knocking on doors, telling intelligent people 3 times my age that what they believed was misguided and just plain wrong, was anything but easy. But, I would submit that strict adherence to any lifestyle that separates you from your peers is just as difficult. I find it hard to believe that Orthodox Jews, Buddhist Monks or the Amish etc. have it any easier because they aren’t striving to receive “his atoning grace.” (or at least his “correct” atoning grace.)
Jeremy, the most difficult ordeal that I endured was losing my faith. While most people I talk to who have abandoned Mormonism or any other system of belief found that it cured, or at least reduced their depression, I found that it exacerbated mine. The most profound and difficult questions we have to answer in this life are the very questions religion purports to answer. As long as these answers are in place, we are free to pursue our daily routines and focus our attention to the more mundane and common questions. I was raised Mormon and, for as long as I can remember, have been fascinated with the transcendent. I faked sick during a 5th grade test because rather than concentrating on the questions, I was tortured, trying to hide my tears as I struggled to define the initial spark that caused existence. That’s just one of many examples. This obsession led me to read everything I could on Mormonism. If it was written by Talmage, Widtsoe, Joseph Smith, F. Smith, Fielding Smith, Madsen, Skousen etc., I read it and believed it. The more I read and understood, the more comfort I received knowing that when death came, I’d at least know what was up. With such a myopic point of view, Mormonism formed the framework of my existence. Every piece of information I received was filed away according to the mental structure, or “filing system.” I had built using Mormon teachings.
Now, I won’t go into too much detail concerning my “deconversion,” except to explain that it had nothing to do with “anti-mormon” literature or any offense taken from church authorities. It was more of a result of my continuing honest and sincere search for truth. Now, imagine my horror when I had to confront the possibility that I might be wrong, that all my mental files were out of place and the great questions in life were still unanswered. We humans have an inborn fear of the unknown, and as intelligent and well read as I thought I was, I realized I would face with the greatest unknown completely unprepared. Everything I thought I knew was out of place. I frantically tried to come up with a new worldview to provide the same comfort I felt when I “knew” the “gospel” was beyond reproach. Even a fraction of that comfort would have been sufficient, but it never came. I was faced with the most humiliating prospect of all, that I didn’t know, and that I would never know. Those realizations are not easy. The Mormon road was a lot easier. On top of the unfortunate smug, and inquisitive personality expressed in this comment, I’m also very light-hearted and charismatic in social situations, if I do say so myself. ? Such a personality afforded me countless opportunity to indulge in every “sin” imaginable. I almost always took advantage. Most of these “sins” were committed while I believed. Even with the supposed realization that my actions would have eternal consequences, at least I knew what was coming. Never, through all these sins did I ever feel the amount of despair I felt when I had to battle my doubts. When something so important and pervasive is torn away, the consequences are traumatic.
And as far as the road being “short” or a “dead end” is concerned, the disintegration of my faith began when I discovered the Mormon road had in fact led me to an intellectual dead end. Once I reached that dead end, I explored other avenues to obtain knowledge and truth. I had to do a bit of mental gymnastics to reconcile my new evidence-based information with my faith-based beliefs but I had years of practice so I did alright. When I finally realized that I didn’t have to let my faith stand in the way of logic and reason, I found that my options became unlimited. I could take things for what they are rather than change the evidence to suit my beliefs. I can now pursue truth everywhere, not just in Mormon sanctioned sources. Jeremy, this road is endless.

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]]> By: How Much is Enough? at Soaring Dodo http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72431 How Much is Enough? at Soaring Dodo Tue, 05 Jan 2010 17:19:40 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72431 [...] Leah had an interesting post regarding a comment on her deconversion recently featured at MainStreet. [...] [...] Leah had an interesting post regarding a comment on her deconversion recently featured at MainStreet. [...]

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]]> By: Leah http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72425 Leah Mon, 04 Jan 2010 20:50:19 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72425 Hi Jeremy, I've been on my road away from the Church for almost five years now, and I can tell you that it's anything but a dead end. I made an honest try at going back. If there is a god, he knows that, and if he would condemn me for refusing to submit to an abusive belief system, then he does not deserve my worship. And also, since many members of my family are still LDS, I have gone to a few church services since leaving and still find no reason to believe in it. The evidence was all around me? <a href="http://whoreofalltheearth.blogspot.com/2009/10/witness-from-spirit-is-not-proof.html" rel="nofollow">I beg to differ.</a> I didn't try hard enough? <a href="http://whoreofalltheearth.blogspot.com/2009/12/seek-and-ye-shall-find-or-not.html" rel="nofollow">Oh, yes I did.</a> Have you given "apostasy" an honest try? If you read my story, then you know that I concluded that the Church was false without reading anything "anti-Mormon." But I'm curious, have you read any "anti-Mormon" critiques of the Church, or critiques of religion in general? What do you have to lose? If you lose your faith, it wasn't worth having anyway. What do I have to lose by going to church? How about time with my family? Contrary to a misconceived belief, we do not get to be with our families forever, and I'd rather spend our Sundays enjoying each other than sitting in meetings. Hi Jeremy, I’ve been on my road away from the Church for almost five years now, and I can tell you that it’s anything but a dead end. I made an honest try at going back. If there is a god, he knows that, and if he would condemn me for refusing to submit to an abusive belief system, then he does not deserve my worship. And also, since many members of my family are still LDS, I have gone to a few church services since leaving and still find no reason to believe in it.

The evidence was all around me? I beg to differ.

I didn’t try hard enough? Oh, yes I did.

Have you given “apostasy” an honest try? If you read my story, then you know that I concluded that the Church was false without reading anything “anti-Mormon.” But I’m curious, have you read any “anti-Mormon” critiques of the Church, or critiques of religion in general? What do you have to lose? If you lose your faith, it wasn’t worth having anyway.

What do I have to lose by going to church? How about time with my family? Contrary to a misconceived belief, we do not get to be with our families forever, and I’d rather spend our Sundays enjoying each other than sitting in meetings.

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]]> By: Ray http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/12/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-a-testimony/comment-page-1/#comment-72424 Ray Mon, 04 Jan 2010 20:44:12 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1327#comment-72424 lol @ Jeremy. Did that guy even read the story? lol @ Jeremy. Did that guy even read the story?

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