Comments on: 3-2-1 Countdown for Equality: No Bittersweet Victories http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/28/3-2-1-countdown-for-equality-no-bittersweet-victories/ A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism. Thu, 24 May 2012 06:27:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Andrew S http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/28/3-2-1-countdown-for-equality-no-bittersweet-victories/comment-page-1/#comment-71841 Andrew S Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:33:33 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1093#comment-71841 Kullervo, while I agree with you...the thing that nags at me is: can we really convince others? Consider both sides. Each has terms that they feel are nonnegotiable. The other side cannot, will not, or must not concede the validity of the one side's terms...so trying to convince the other person is essentially to try to convince the other person to stab their own cause...which they are committed against doing. I mean, I know change happens, but rarely is it dramatic or momentous. I don't see changing societal attitudes as being exemplary of people changing attitudes, but rather of a new demographic that has been raised with different attitudes that is displacing old demographics Kullervo, while I agree with you…the thing that nags at me is: can we really convince others?

Consider both sides. Each has terms that they feel are nonnegotiable. The other side cannot, will not, or must not concede the validity of the one side’s terms…so trying to convince the other person is essentially to try to convince the other person to stab their own cause…which they are committed against doing.

I mean, I know change happens, but rarely is it dramatic or momentous. I don’t see changing societal attitudes as being exemplary of people changing attitudes, but rather of a new demographic that has been raised with different attitudes that is displacing old demographics

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]]> By: chanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/28/3-2-1-countdown-for-equality-no-bittersweet-victories/comment-page-1/#comment-71828 chanson Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:24:08 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1093#comment-71828 Kullervo -- I'm completely in favor of a "changing people's minds" approach, and I don't agree that this is a valid criticism of the gay rights movement. It has been all about visibility from the beginning, and <i>because people's minds have changed</i> on this issue, the changes to the law naturally follow. By the same token, I actually get a lot more angry with the CoJCoL-ds for their deceitful rhetorical games than for their political actions, because it's their lying that makes open and honest discussion difficult. Kullervo — I’m completely in favor of a “changing people’s minds” approach, and I don’t agree that this is a valid criticism of the gay rights movement. It has been all about visibility from the beginning, and because people’s minds have changed on this issue, the changes to the law naturally follow.

By the same token, I actually get a lot more angry with the CoJCoL-ds for their deceitful rhetorical games than for their political actions, because it’s their lying that makes open and honest discussion difficult.

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]]> By: Kullervo http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/28/3-2-1-countdown-for-equality-no-bittersweet-victories/comment-page-1/#comment-71827 Kullervo Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:25:15 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1093#comment-71827 I wonder how fast things would change if we spent effort <i>actually trying to convince people and change their minds</i> instead of spending all our effort on political maneuvering and ballot initiatives. Politics in this country is in my opinion irredeemable as a mechanism for social change, because it has evolved into a chess game. Both sides want to win by politically outmaneuvering the other instead of actually trying to convince people that they are right. I wonder how fast things would change if we spent effort actually trying to convince people and change their minds instead of spending all our effort on political maneuvering and ballot initiatives.

Politics in this country is in my opinion irredeemable as a mechanism for social change, because it has evolved into a chess game. Both sides want to win by politically outmaneuvering the other instead of actually trying to convince people that they are right.

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