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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Let&#8217;s talk about our relationship&#8221;: Ockham&#8217;s Razor, by Alan Michael Williams</title>
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	<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/</link>
	<description>A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism.</description>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Mormon&#8221; and &#8220;Queer&#8221; at Crossroads &#124; Main Street Plaza</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-74875</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Mormon&#8221; and &#8220;Queer&#8221; at Crossroads &#124; Main Street Plaza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 20:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-74875</guid>
		<description>[...] been active on this blog since chanson reviewed my gay, Mormon novel Ockham&#8217;s Razor last October.  I will be presenting a paper about my novel at this year&#8217;s Sunstone Symposium [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been active on this blog since chanson reviewed my gay, Mormon novel Ockham&#8217;s Razor last October.  I will be presenting a paper about my novel at this year&#8217;s Sunstone Symposium [...]
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		<title>By: FLeeS</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-73341</link>
		<dc:creator>FLeeS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-73341</guid>
		<description>Mr Bigelow, the LDS Church will NEVER condone gay marriage, just as it will NEVER allow blacks the Priesthood . . . Whoops, I guess myopia doesn&#039;t work in a church that believes in ongoing revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Bigelow, the LDS Church will NEVER condone gay marriage, just as it will NEVER allow blacks the Priesthood . . . Whoops, I guess myopia doesn&#8217;t work in a church that believes in ongoing revelation.
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		<title>By: chanson</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71626</link>
		<dc:creator>chanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-71626</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Sodomy outside of hetero marriage will NEVER be acceptable to the LDS Church, and even sodomy within hetero marriage is “don’t ask, don’t tell.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So you&#039;re saying that anal sex isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;necessarily&lt;/i&gt; a sin or vice if it&#039;s man and wife?  What if it&#039;s the wife pegging her husband with a strap-on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Sodomy outside of hetero marriage will NEVER be acceptable to the LDS Church, and even sodomy within hetero marriage is “don’t ask, don’t tell.”</p></blockquote>
<p>So you&#8217;re saying that anal sex isn&#8217;t <i>necessarily</i> a sin or vice if it&#8217;s man and wife?  What if it&#8217;s the wife pegging her husband with a strap-on?
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		<title>By: Christopher Bigelow</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71625</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Bigelow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-71625</guid>
		<description>I think for Mormons the main problem is with actual gay sex itself, which for us will NEVER leave the level of vice. So any compulsion to have gay sex functions much like an addiction to drugs, porn, or anything else harmful. We think gay sex is spiritually harmful because it so directly runs counter to God&#039;s example and commandments for his children.

On the other hand, I personally don&#039;t think all the emotions of homosexuality can as easily be chalked up to vice, even from a Mormon perspective. That&#039;s a big part of the reason why this issue is so complex. No doubt there is some virtue in many of the emotions, although if/when they lead to same-gender sodomy, then obviously (from a Mormon POV) these emotions are not virtuous.

Sodomy outside of hetero marriage will NEVER be acceptable to the LDS Church, and even sodomy within hetero marriage is &quot;don&#039;t ask, don&#039;t tell.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think for Mormons the main problem is with actual gay sex itself, which for us will NEVER leave the level of vice. So any compulsion to have gay sex functions much like an addiction to drugs, porn, or anything else harmful. We think gay sex is spiritually harmful because it so directly runs counter to God&#8217;s example and commandments for his children.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I personally don&#8217;t think all the emotions of homosexuality can as easily be chalked up to vice, even from a Mormon perspective. That&#8217;s a big part of the reason why this issue is so complex. No doubt there is some virtue in many of the emotions, although if/when they lead to same-gender sodomy, then obviously (from a Mormon POV) these emotions are not virtuous.</p>
<p>Sodomy outside of hetero marriage will NEVER be acceptable to the LDS Church, and even sodomy within hetero marriage is &#8220;don&#8217;t ask, don&#8217;t tell.&#8221;
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		<title>By: chanson</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71606</link>
		<dc:creator>chanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-71606</guid>
		<description>leisurelyviking -- good point.  Perhaps romantic love can be reasonably compared to addiction, but there&#039;s no particular reason to limit the metaphor to homosexual romantic love...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>leisurelyviking &#8212; good point.  Perhaps romantic love can be reasonably compared to addiction, but there&#8217;s no particular reason to limit the metaphor to homosexual romantic love&#8230;
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		<title>By: leisurelyviking</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71601</link>
		<dc:creator>leisurelyviking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 03:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For me at least, romantic love is like addiction (disclosure: I am heterosexually oriented).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me at least, romantic love is like addiction (disclosure: I am heterosexually oriented).
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		<title>By: chanson</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71599</link>
		<dc:creator>chanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-71599</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think there is a kernel of truth here. Many gay males are more verbal about their emotions than straight guys, and you sometimes see “nesting” instincts that straight guys don’t have.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s very possible.  As I was reading this book, I kept thinking that if I were to portray a straight male character analyzing his relationship like this, I &lt;i&gt;know for a fact&lt;/i&gt; the straight male readers would complain &quot;guys aren&#039;t like that!!&quot;  (I contend that a few straight guys are like that, but they&#039;re in the minority.)  OTOH, if a gay guy portrays a gay character who loves to analyze relationships, who&#039;s going to contradict him?

Actually, one really interesting point was when the (gay) main character was analyzing the problems in his straight friends&#039; relationship.  The scene where his straight male friend was asking him for relationship advice struck me as pretty realistic.  (Of course I&#039;m not a guy of either persuasion...)

&lt;blockquote&gt;Who would you guess is the audience for &lt;i&gt;Ockham’s Razor&lt;/i&gt;?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know who the intended audience is, but I think it would appeal to people who are interested in stories that center around interpersonal relationships.  So to make a broad (stereotypical) generalization, that would be mostly gay men and straight women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think there is a kernel of truth here. Many gay males are more verbal about their emotions than straight guys, and you sometimes see “nesting” instincts that straight guys don’t have.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s very possible.  As I was reading this book, I kept thinking that if I were to portray a straight male character analyzing his relationship like this, I <i>know for a fact</i> the straight male readers would complain &#8220;guys aren&#8217;t like that!!&#8221;  (I contend that a few straight guys are like that, but they&#8217;re in the minority.)  OTOH, if a gay guy portrays a gay character who loves to analyze relationships, who&#8217;s going to contradict him?</p>
<p>Actually, one really interesting point was when the (gay) main character was analyzing the problems in his straight friends&#8217; relationship.  The scene where his straight male friend was asking him for relationship advice struck me as pretty realistic.  (Of course I&#8217;m not a guy of either persuasion&#8230;)</p>
<blockquote><p>Who would you guess is the audience for <i>Ockham’s Razor</i>?</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know who the intended audience is, but I think it would appeal to people who are interested in stories that center around interpersonal relationships.  So to make a broad (stereotypical) generalization, that would be mostly gay men and straight women.
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		<title>By: MoHoHawaii</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71596</link>
		<dc:creator>MoHoHawaii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=1022#comment-71596</guid>
		<description>You mention &quot;the explicit (and frequent) man-on-man &#039;let’s talk about our relationship&#039; action.&quot;

LOL! Homosexuality was once known as the love that dared not speak its name. It&#039;s actually more the &quot;love that can&#039;t shut up.&quot; :-)

I think there is a kernel of truth here. Many gay males are more verbal about their emotions than straight guys, and you sometimes see &quot;nesting&quot; instincts that straight guys don&#039;t have.

I think this is related to the appeal of yaoi comics in Japan. The yaoi genre is based on romance between young men and is intended for a straight female readership. I believe that the reason it is popular is because the male characters are shown as sensitive and romantic and this appeals to women who have macho-fatigue. In yaoi, the guys *love* to talk about their feelings for each other.

Who would you guess is the audience for &lt;i&gt;Ockham&#039;s Razor&lt;/i&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mention &#8220;the explicit (and frequent) man-on-man &#8216;let’s talk about our relationship&#8217; action.&#8221;</p>
<p>LOL! Homosexuality was once known as the love that dared not speak its name. It&#8217;s actually more the &#8220;love that can&#8217;t shut up.&#8221; <img src='http://latterdaymainstreet.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think there is a kernel of truth here. Many gay males are more verbal about their emotions than straight guys, and you sometimes see &#8220;nesting&#8221; instincts that straight guys don&#8217;t have.</p>
<p>I think this is related to the appeal of yaoi comics in Japan. The yaoi genre is based on romance between young men and is intended for a straight female readership. I believe that the reason it is popular is because the male characters are shown as sensitive and romantic and this appeals to women who have macho-fatigue. In yaoi, the guys *love* to talk about their feelings for each other.</p>
<p>Who would you guess is the audience for <i>Ockham&#8217;s Razor</i>?
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		<title>By: chanson</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71595</link>
		<dc:creator>chanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actual literary criticism on the quality of the prose?  On the grand scale of indie-published works, I don&#039;t think either one of them is up at the level of &lt;a href=&quot;http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2009/03/difference-vision-can-make-zoe-murdocks.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Torn by God&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.

Beyond that, it&#039;s a little difficult for me to judge.  Both works (&quot;No Going Back&quot; and &quot;Ockham&#039;s Razor&quot;) center the story around the introspection that goes on in the main characters&#039; minds.  I was impressed by the feeling in Williams&#039;s scenes when Micah and Brendan were together, such as the scene where Micah is watching Brendan dance ballet.  Other scenes were a little clunky (especially some of the dialogs about drug addiction).

Both books were focused around examining ambiguous situations, but I think Williams did a better job of just portraying the ambiguity and letting it be.  (His treatment of racism was particularly interesting, as Brendan is a &quot;brown boy&quot;).  Langford&#039;s is far more explicitly didactic (offering instruction to faithful Mormons on how not to be cruel to gay Mormons), especially the character of Paul&#039;s mother (&quot;Here&#039;s how to love me and help me feel comfortable with who I am &lt;i&gt;without encouraging my homosexuality&lt;/i&gt;, Mom!&quot;).

I&#039;m not sure if that answers your question... ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actual literary criticism on the quality of the prose?  On the grand scale of indie-published works, I don&#8217;t think either one of them is up at the level of <a href="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2009/03/difference-vision-can-make-zoe-murdocks.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Torn by God</i></a>.</p>
<p>Beyond that, it&#8217;s a little difficult for me to judge.  Both works (&#8220;No Going Back&#8221; and &#8220;Ockham&#8217;s Razor&#8221;) center the story around the introspection that goes on in the main characters&#8217; minds.  I was impressed by the feeling in Williams&#8217;s scenes when Micah and Brendan were together, such as the scene where Micah is watching Brendan dance ballet.  Other scenes were a little clunky (especially some of the dialogs about drug addiction).</p>
<p>Both books were focused around examining ambiguous situations, but I think Williams did a better job of just portraying the ambiguity and letting it be.  (His treatment of racism was particularly interesting, as Brendan is a &#8220;brown boy&#8221;).  Langford&#8217;s is far more explicitly didactic (offering instruction to faithful Mormons on how not to be cruel to gay Mormons), especially the character of Paul&#8217;s mother (&#8220;Here&#8217;s how to love me and help me feel comfortable with who I am <i>without encouraging my homosexuality</i>, Mom!&#8221;).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if that answers your question&#8230; <img src='http://latterdaymainstreet.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/10/10/lets-talk-about-our-relationship-ockhams-razor-by-alan-michael-williams/comment-page-1/#comment-71594</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>this sounds much more appealing and realistic than &quot;No Going Back&quot; in terms of the narrative and characters.  Any comments on the prose and so forth?  Just curious as to what you thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this sounds much more appealing and realistic than &#8220;No Going Back&#8221; in terms of the narrative and characters.  Any comments on the prose and so forth?  Just curious as to what you thought.
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