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wow, my bad. typo. farther. I wish I could move my father past the church, although I can get him to admit ON HIS OWN TERMS that he doesn’t believe in an orthodox way, he enjoys taking sabbaticals (because the people in church and the orthodox way the church is annoy him), he knows his beliefs are idiosyncratic and all would not be appreciated in meetings, etc.,

but still, he believes

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My own father is still a firm believer. Do you have any tips?

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I take my tastes in Alcohol, When I started drinking I made it very clear to my L.D.S. family that I did not drink to get drunk. And gee look at these expensive locally made micro-brews I am drinking, “I drink because I enjoy the flavor.” This is true to a degree but a lot of my snobbery had more to do with my discomfort with appearing to have left the Church, so I could sin.

After getting drunk a few times showed me that I do not like being drunk. Drinking cheap beer showed me that I really do prefer the the locally made(we are sooo spoiled in Oregon)beer, ale, yada yada.

Leaving lent me the freedom to see if the morals I grew up with could hold up to ambiguity.
Rather trying to distance your self form the Mormon interpretation immediately, you may find that, in time, you will have re-interpreted them.

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well, of course there’s a separate debate about morality outside the realm of mormonism. But this is still an engagement in subjective fictions. As you note:

“The difficulty lies in the fact that morals are often part of a religion and more often than not about culture codes. Sometimes, moral codes give way to legal codes, which couple penalties or corrective actions with particular practices. Note that while many legal codes are merely built on a foundation of religious and/or cultural moral codes, ofttimes they are one and the same.”

I mean, basing morality on harm to other…that is at its base subjective. Because pain/pleasure/etc., are inherently subjective. This doesn’t make them less valuable, because that’s the entire point of the subjective valuation. But it’s still a far cry from finding anything objective.

I’m saying (very poorly) that I absorbed a mormon framework in very incomplete, weird ways. So, now the weirdness is coming up now with mismatched beliefs to preferred courses of actions, etc.,

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yeah, I have no idea what is going on here anymore. I’m going to take a hiatus for a while.

What? We just had some technical difficultieswhich should be premanently cleared up now that ProfXM has taken over the tech admin. Unfortunately — due to the fact that we weren’t able to post for almost two weeks — the discussion has naturally slowed down. I’d be putting more into stoking it back up myself, but I’ve been incredibly busy at work.

The last thing we need is for our regulars to jump ship right when we’re trying to get back on track! (if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor )

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What I was trying to say (which might not have come across) I just think there is a separate debate about morality in general outside of the realm of mormonism – and a mormon code of conduct. So yes, I think it is (partially) a subjective fiction…..

Are you saying you didn’t absorb a mormon framework or state of mind growing up? For me, that would be like saying I didn’t learn some of the things I learned in elementary school. They’re there. I can choose what I want to accept, examine and re-evaluate (like the four food groups…)

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section of mortality in wikipedia

Quoted from the article:

Moral codes are often complex definitions of right and wrong that are based upon well-defined value systems. Although some people might think that a moral code is simple, rarely is there anything simple about one’s values, ethics, etc. or, for that matter, the judgment of those of others. The difficulty lies in the fact that morals are often part of a religion and more often than not about culture codes. Sometimes, moral codes give way to legal codes, which couple penalties or corrective actions with particular practices. Note that while many legal codes are merely built on a foundation of religious and/or cultural moral codes, ofttimes they are one and the same.

Then there is a related article on value systems on wikipedia.
value systems

I like this statement from that article:

# Individuals may act freely unless their actions harm others or interfere with others’ freedom or with functions of society that individuals need, provided those functions do not themselves interfere with these proscribed individual rights and were agreed to by a majority of the individuals.

In other words, if I drink a beer, that doesn’t harm another person. If I steal a car, that does hurt another person.

PS. I have no idea if my links and quotes will work. I would like to ask for a preview quote button someday when the amazing, intelligent admins of this site have time and willingness to make updates.

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