Having left the church, I finally identify with my Mormon pioneer ancestors.

I agree with this. It used to drive me nuts when friends would admit to me that they didn’t really believe the church was true, but had to stay “because of the sacrifices their ancestors made in joining the church and crossing the plains, blah blah blah.”

So I’d say, “The sacrifice your ancestors made was to leave an inadequate belief system for one they thought would give them greater happiness and opportunity. Imagine where you’d be if they had the same attitude to their old church that you have to yours.”

   0 likes

He wouldn’t necessarily say that skepticism and unbelief is a threat for *Mormonism*, but rather that it is a threat to *me* (or any other person).

What I meant was that he spends time worrying about unbelief because it is a source of distress in his personal life (because of his conflict with you over it).

Even if he believes in a supernatural power that is cultivated by all religions, there’s a good chance his perception of “which is worse?” might be different if one of his children converted to, say, evangelical Christianity and was telling him that his belief in the teachings of Battlestar Galactica is wrong because it contradicts the Bible.

   0 likes

The way my father looks at things, he sees that there is some kind of power that pervades throughout the universe that is evidenced (even if science doesn’t know how to detect it sufficiently yet). This power has been used throughout history by many great people (so it’s not necessarily confined to one religion), but he would say that the church and its doctrines are a reliable way of living that cultivates and invokes this power.

So, for him, atheism is rejecting real phenomena of the world and universe. He would say that atheists refuse to see with their own eyes, and that they instead think real patterns are “coincidence” and “delusion.” (I’d respond by saying my father probably just has a serious case of confirmation bias, but I like to humor him, if only because of the blog material).

He wouldn’t necessarily say that skepticism and unbelief is a threat for *Mormonism*, but rather that it is a threat to *me* (or any other person). I think he’s the person to say something like what Rebecca noted — that someone who does not share his values is hurting themselves in the long run.

He isn’t about following a megachurch (not exactly), because he has his own individualist streak that puts him at odds with some orthodox positions of the church. He would be a big advocate of personal revelation, but he would say that that personal revelation never points to atheism. He probably would be opposed to *labeling* himself as a new order mormon, because he says that level of *open* rebelliousness would be unbecoming.

   0 likes

I think that your father’s position is probably influenced by contact with you (even if you haven’t been too open with him about your beliefs). He clearly sees skepticism and unbelief as the biggest threat or competition for Mormonism. A megachurch holds no allure for you (or anyone he knows) so he hasn’t spent any time worrying about the perspective or position of the people who attend one.

   0 likes

People think that because I don’t have their values, I don’t have any values.

Yeah, I’ve had that problem too.

   0 likes

Somehow I missed your comment when I had responded to chanson, but wow — my dad would DEFINITELY love that Mormon+Mystic group. I’ll forward him both links; I think he’d appreciate them.

Re 4: rebecca,

I understand your sentiments, but I don’t think I’m quite getting the “Oh!” that I’d like. Yet.

   0 likes

Usually when I explain people have this kind of “Oh!” moment when they understand that I’m actually not awash in this sea of perpetual confusion and torturous emptiness.

   0 likes

But I am willing to accept your understanding — it’s not just popular because people are losing values or whatever. It’s because there’s *objective evidence* and this kind of knowledge is *accessible to everyone*.

   0 likes

Having left the church, I finally identify with my Mormon pioneer ancestors. As you imply, people who leave the church need to be self-determined. If not, we wouldn’t deal well with the judgments and scorn that Mormons send our way.

   0 likes

I’d say it’s crazy to say non-believers are just “following worldly trends” considering that non-believers are a minority and are notoriously disorganized, lacking any kind of coherent movement. Yet, there’s a perverse way in which skepticism can be seen as “following the crowd”: insisting on accepting only facts that are based on objective evidence means only believing things that are accessible to everyone.

   0 likes