Comments on: How I became and atheist http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/ A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism. Tue, 22 May 2012 06:56:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: exmoron http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-684 exmoron Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:39:20 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-684 I had never read the actual war prayer, but I heard Dan Barker's version he put to music and played on ffrf's podcast: http://ffrf.org/shop/music/details.php?ID=CD1 If you can't find it set to music, let me know and I'll send it to you as an mp3 - it's awesome! I had never read the actual war prayer, but I heard Dan Barker’s version he put to music and played on ffrf’s podcast: http://ffrf.org/shop/music/details.php?ID=CD1

If you can’t find it set to music, let me know and I’ll send it to you as an mp3 – it’s awesome!

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]]> By: chanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-683 chanson Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:28:58 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-683 That's so sweet!!! I'd rather spend eternity with you (and my many atheist friends and family) than with an evil, capricious omnipotent being too!!! On a tangentially related note, did you see the <a href="http://www.unscrewingtheinscrutable.com//node/1351?q=log/node/1351&q=node/1351" rel="nofollow">war prayer</a> by our hell-mate Samuel Clemens? That’s so sweet!!! I’d rather spend eternity with you (and my many atheist friends and family) than with an evil, capricious omnipotent being too!!!

On a tangentially related note, did you see the war prayer by our hell-mate Samuel Clemens?

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]]> By: exmoron http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-682 exmoron Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:23:02 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-682 Yeah, I definitely don't see it as condescending. Think about it this way: I live my life as morally and upright as possible, not because of the fear of a supernatural being but because I believe (for other reasons) it is the right thing to do. Now, couple that with my "hope" there is a god. I live a good life and some supernatural entity rewards me for it, great. But why live my life based on such a belief when there is absolutely no evidence that such an entity exists? If he/she/it exists, it will reward me for living a good life, regardless of whether I believe in he/she/it. If it didn't, and it demanded that I spend my short life in obeisance to its unknown and unknowable will (subject, all the while, to dishonest hucksters and thieves who claim to know its will but never agree on what it is), I'd just as soon not spend eternity with that deity. That deity would be an asshole. I'd rather go to hell; at least I'd be in the company of many wonderful atheists: Samuel Clemens, Carl Sagan, chanson, etc. Yeah, I definitely don’t see it as condescending. Think about it this way: I live my life as morally and upright as possible, not because of the fear of a supernatural being but because I believe (for other reasons) it is the right thing to do. Now, couple that with my “hope” there is a god. I live a good life and some supernatural entity rewards me for it, great. But why live my life based on such a belief when there is absolutely no evidence that such an entity exists? If he/she/it exists, it will reward me for living a good life, regardless of whether I believe in he/she/it. If it didn’t, and it demanded that I spend my short life in obeisance to its unknown and unknowable will (subject, all the while, to dishonest hucksters and thieves who claim to know its will but never agree on what it is), I’d just as soon not spend eternity with that deity. That deity would be an asshole. I’d rather go to hell; at least I’d be in the company of many wonderful atheists: Samuel Clemens, Carl Sagan, chanson, etc.

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]]> By: C. L. Hanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-680 C. L. Hanson Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:01:36 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-680 Glenn -- I don't think it's pandering or condescending at all. It's true that everyone has their biases, and people tend to seek out evidence that backs up the things they want to believe. It is intelligent of you to acknowledge your bias when you say that your belief is built on your desire for parts of both poles to be true. I'm not going to pretend that all atheists have looked at the evidence in a completely objective and unbiased manner. On the other hand, the fact that people are biased doesn't mean that all or even most atheists are happy that there's no God, and would choose for the the universe to be that way, given the choice. Personally I am horrified by the idea that one day my conscienceless -- my thoughts, my self -- will simply cease to exist. This thought upsets me every single day. I've written about it on my blog <a href="http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2007/03/do-you-want-to-live-forever-or-many.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. And like the atheist Exmoron quoted, I would love it if there were some sort of real assurance that justice will prevail in the end and life will be made truly fair. That would make life a whole lot simpler and more relaxing. But wanting something to be true and it actually being true are two different things. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, but I mean it very sincerely, and it is a key component to why I believe as I do. Glenn — I don’t think it’s pandering or condescending at all.

It’s true that everyone has their biases, and people tend to seek out evidence that backs up the things they want to believe. It is intelligent of you to acknowledge your bias when you say that your belief is built on your desire for parts of both poles to be true.

I’m not going to pretend that all atheists have looked at the evidence in a completely objective and unbiased manner. On the other hand, the fact that people are biased doesn’t mean that all or even most atheists are happy that there’s no God, and would choose for the the universe to be that way, given the choice.

Personally I am horrified by the idea that one day my conscienceless — my thoughts, my self — will simply cease to exist. This thought upsets me every single day. I’ve written about it on my blog here. And like the atheist Exmoron quoted, I would love it if there were some sort of real assurance that justice will prevail in the end and life will be made truly fair. That would make life a whole lot simpler and more relaxing. But wanting something to be true and it actually being true are two different things. I hope that doesn’t sound condescending, but I mean it very sincerely, and it is a key component to why I believe as I do.

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]]> By: Glenn http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-679 Glenn Fri, 01 Jun 2007 03:26:20 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-679 Very good stuff. I find the rational to be good because it is the right things regardless of whether or not a God is keeping score to be such a refreshing and liberating approach. It always annoys me to no end when I hear someone say something like "well, if there's not God, then why should I do my hometeaching?" Ugh. Do your hometeaching because you want to support and care for the people you hometeach, not because the quorum needs a better percentage to look good in the eyes of God. I also see the dangers (I won't go so far as to say "worthlessness" because there is clearly an operating function to it) of the epistemological method, but I still don't see -- for myself -- the human inability to prove there is a god as sufficient reason to beleive there is no God. I hate to admit my own judmental bias here, but I don't really buy it when I hear an atheist say "I hope there is a God." That seems almost pandering or condescending to me. I should probably adjust my attitude there and accept that they could be sincere (although even that is an excersize in wishful thinking -- my wish to be fair). Nevertheless, a very interesting discussion. Very good stuff. I find the rational to be good because it is the right things regardless of whether or not a God is keeping score to be such a refreshing and liberating approach. It always annoys me to no end when I hear someone say something like “well, if there’s not God, then why should I do my hometeaching?” Ugh. Do your hometeaching because you want to support and care for the people you hometeach, not because the quorum needs a better percentage to look good in the eyes of God.

I also see the dangers (I won’t go so far as to say “worthlessness” because there is clearly an operating function to it) of the epistemological method, but I still don’t see — for myself — the human inability to prove there is a god as sufficient reason to beleive there is no God.

I hate to admit my own judmental bias here, but I don’t really buy it when I hear an atheist say “I hope there is a God.” That seems almost pandering or condescending to me. I should probably adjust my attitude there and accept that they could be sincere (although even that is an excersize in wishful thinking — my wish to be fair).

Nevertheless, a very interesting discussion.

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]]> By: Wayne http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-677 Wayne Thu, 31 May 2007 19:00:57 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-677 I would like to add that I had plenty of "spiritual" experiences. What made me doubt them was when they were replicated at concerts. Having a "spritual" expereince at a Dead Milkman concert really made me doubt the experiences I had at church. I would like to add that I had plenty of “spiritual” experiences. What made me doubt them was when they were replicated at concerts.

Having a “spritual” expereince at a Dead Milkman concert really made me doubt the experiences I had at church.

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]]> By: chanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-676 chanson Thu, 31 May 2007 17:48:03 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-676 Glen -- My family is an even split on religion: Mom and my two sisters are LDS, my brothers and I are atheists, and my Dad is Christian. The various factions have all basically agreed to disagree, so we all get along great. :D Exmoron -- Exactly!!! That's wild that your path out of the church was so similar to mine, including comparing the spiritual evidence for Mormonism with the spiritual evidence for other religions. Glen — My family is an even split on religion: Mom and my two sisters are LDS, my brothers and I are atheists, and my Dad is Christian. The various factions have all basically agreed to disagree, so we all get along great. :D

Exmoron — Exactly!!!

That’s wild that your path out of the church was so similar to mine, including comparing the spiritual evidence for Mormonism with the spiritual evidence for other religions.

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]]> By: exmoron http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-675 exmoron Thu, 31 May 2007 17:35:42 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-675 Great post, chanson! My path from Mormonism to atheism was pretty similar. Almost immediately after giving up Mormonism I realized Christianity was no better (Catholicism, Protestantism, and every other derivation). What followed was a short stop at deism followed by about a year of considering myself an agnostic. That lasted until I realized that if you don't BELIEVE there is a god, you are an atheist. It's logically indefensible to say that there is absolutely no god - no atheist worth his/her philosophical salt would make such a claim. But the gods described by the extant world religions are absolutely non-existent - they are logically inconsistent and worthless. One thing that helped me find my way out was making the acquaintance of a former evangelical Christian who left about the same time. It was him telling me that he had felt the exact same feelings confirming that his brand of Christianity was right and Mormonism was wrong that helped me realize that that epistemological method was also worthless. If someone could receive a "spiritual" conviction that Mormonism was a fraud while I received the same conviction that it wasn't, then this means of arriving at "knowledge" was worthless. As for the discussion between Kullervo and Glenn, I just want to add this thought. Most atheists would readily admit that they hope there is a god. In the recent BBC documentary on atheism a prominent Irish-American stated it really well, (paraphrasing) "I really hope there is a god. I'd like to live forever and I think some people should be punished for being dicks during mortality. But hope doesn't make it so. I don't BELIEVE there is a god and I don't live my life worrying about it. I'm a good person because I believe that is the right thing to do, not because I believe some supernatural entity is keeping score." You can hope for whatever you want, but hope isn't knowledge. Hope isn't even belief. If you don't BELIEVE there is a god, you're an atheist. Great post, chanson! My path from Mormonism to atheism was pretty similar. Almost immediately after giving up Mormonism I realized Christianity was no better (Catholicism, Protestantism, and every other derivation). What followed was a short stop at deism followed by about a year of considering myself an agnostic. That lasted until I realized that if you don’t BELIEVE there is a god, you are an atheist. It’s logically indefensible to say that there is absolutely no god – no atheist worth his/her philosophical salt would make such a claim. But the gods described by the extant world religions are absolutely non-existent – they are logically inconsistent and worthless.

One thing that helped me find my way out was making the acquaintance of a former evangelical Christian who left about the same time. It was him telling me that he had felt the exact same feelings confirming that his brand of Christianity was right and Mormonism was wrong that helped me realize that that epistemological method was also worthless. If someone could receive a “spiritual” conviction that Mormonism was a fraud while I received the same conviction that it wasn’t, then this means of arriving at “knowledge” was worthless.

As for the discussion between Kullervo and Glenn, I just want to add this thought. Most atheists would readily admit that they hope there is a god. In the recent BBC documentary on atheism a prominent Irish-American stated it really well, (paraphrasing) “I really hope there is a god. I’d like to live forever and I think some people should be punished for being dicks during mortality. But hope doesn’t make it so. I don’t BELIEVE there is a god and I don’t live my life worrying about it. I’m a good person because I believe that is the right thing to do, not because I believe some supernatural entity is keeping score.” You can hope for whatever you want, but hope isn’t knowledge. Hope isn’t even belief. If you don’t BELIEVE there is a god, you’re an atheist.

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]]> By: Kullervo http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-674 Kullervo Thu, 31 May 2007 13:35:09 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-674 It only leads me to believe there is no God because my basis for believing in God for my whole life was spiritual feelings that I now discount. Couple that with a strong sense that truth should be confirmed by spiritual feelings, and you've got a problem. A paradox. I won't accept vague spiritual feelings as a basis for truth, but that's the way I've been taught to seek and recognize truth for my whole life. The trick is to find other reasons to believe, other than spiritual feelings. It's what my entire blog is about these days, so it's tough to cram into one post. I don't want to base my belief system on wishful thinking. There are a lot of strands of thought and belief that are conflicting (modernism vs. post-modernism, mysticism vs. reason, etc.), and I'm in the process of sorting it all out. It only leads me to believe there is no God because my basis for believing in God for my whole life was spiritual feelings that I now discount. Couple that with a strong sense that truth should be confirmed by spiritual feelings, and you’ve got a problem. A paradox. I won’t accept vague spiritual feelings as a basis for truth, but that’s the way I’ve been taught to seek and recognize truth for my whole life.

The trick is to find other reasons to believe, other than spiritual feelings. It’s what my entire blog is about these days, so it’s tough to cram into one post. I don’t want to base my belief system on wishful thinking. There are a lot of strands of thought and belief that are conflicting (modernism vs. post-modernism, mysticism vs. reason, etc.), and I’m in the process of sorting it all out.

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]]> By: Glenn http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/05/30/how-i-became-and-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-673 Glenn Thu, 31 May 2007 13:17:31 +0000 http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=100#comment-673 Kullervo, help me understand this. Why does the absence of spiritual feelings lead you to the belief that there is no God? Isn't it possible that there is a God, but he is much more distant than mainstream mormonism imagines? That there is a God who sits back and let's us hash it out all (or mostly) on our own? I recognize it's still a stretch -- a choice and a conscious construction to believe it like that -- and it may be hard to do without recognizing that you are forcing the belief, or "kiddding yourself." But my experience has been to throw away a lot of misconceptions I had about spirituality but not go further on towards atheism. Even when I pray and I feel like I am just praying to a blank wall, I still don't go all the way to thinking there is no God. Kullervo, help me understand this. Why does the absence of spiritual feelings lead you to the belief that there is no God? Isn’t it possible that there is a God, but he is much more distant than mainstream mormonism imagines? That there is a God who sits back and let’s us hash it out all (or mostly) on our own? I recognize it’s still a stretch — a choice and a conscious construction to believe it like that — and it may be hard to do without recognizing that you are forcing the belief, or “kiddding yourself.” But my experience has been to throw away a lot of misconceptions I had about spirituality but not go further on towards atheism. Even when I pray and I feel like I am just praying to a blank wall, I still don’t go all the way to thinking there is no God.

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