Comments on: a symbolic rite of passage? http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/ A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism. Tue, 22 May 2012 06:56:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: chanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-559 chanson Sun, 06 May 2007 14:31:14 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-559 Jesse -- I completely sympathize. My experience as a non-believing teen in a strict LDS household is not something I'd care to repeat. This particular case is a little different though: the parents are non-believers, so if and when the daughter decides she doesn't want anything further to do with this organization, her parents will back her decision. Really, that makes all the difference. The worst part is being at odds with your parents since they end up having a whole lot of say in life decisions you are ready to be making for yourself. And knowing that you disagree with their beliefs can inspire them to try to micromanage your life that much more closely... Jesse — I completely sympathize. My experience as a non-believing teen in a strict LDS household is not something I’d care to repeat.

This particular case is a little different though: the parents are non-believers, so if and when the daughter decides she doesn’t want anything further to do with this organization, her parents will back her decision. Really, that makes all the difference. The worst part is being at odds with your parents since they end up having a whole lot of say in life decisions you are ready to be making for yourself. And knowing that you disagree with their beliefs can inspire them to try to micromanage your life that much more closely…

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]]> By: Jesse http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-554 Jesse Sat, 05 May 2007 17:08:59 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-554 hell no! dont ruin your daughters life! I am still a youth stuck in an active LDS family, and I cant stand it! let your daughter know that she can still fit in, even in Utah, without being baptized. I suppose it's easier for me, living in Denver to hide my LDS membership, but it is still hard. I can't stand this shut-up-and-listen cult! hell no! dont ruin your daughters life! I am still a youth stuck in an active LDS family, and I cant stand it! let your daughter know that she can still fit in, even in Utah, without being baptized. I suppose it’s easier for me, living in Denver to hide my LDS membership, but it is still hard. I can’t stand this shut-up-and-listen cult!

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]]> By: WendyP http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-95 WendyP Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:13:13 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-95 Thanks Jonathan and TWank. TW, nice to know you've been through the whole thing and come out the other side with a positive result! Thanks Jonathan and TWank.

TW, nice to know you’ve been through the whole thing and come out the other side with a positive result!

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]]> By: TWank http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-80 TWank Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:45:44 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-80 This one is an easy one for me. I have eleven and eight years since my ex and I made the exact same decision in how to deal with my daughters. Both of them were baptized when they were eight. They were thoroughly indoctrinated and taught the purpose of baptism before being baptized. At the time of their baptism, neither myself or their mother was active or believing, although both extended families were. If you ask my nineteen and sixteen year old now, they will both deny being believers or members, but it was their decision. Letting them get baptized at eight to appease grandparents or friends at school was a rather benign and safe lesson in autonomy. You want to teach your daughter to think for herself and in the long run she won't disappoint (and unlike some devout believers) your love and acceptance of your daughter won't change if she decides she likes to go to church (just unlikely if she thinks for herself and has you to come home to after Sunday School to discuss things with.) So that is my two bits. This one is an easy one for me. I have eleven and eight years since my ex and I made the exact same decision in how to deal with my daughters. Both of them were baptized when they were eight. They were thoroughly indoctrinated and taught the purpose of baptism before being baptized. At the time of their baptism, neither myself or their mother was active or believing, although both extended families were.

If you ask my nineteen and sixteen year old now, they will both deny being believers or members, but it was their decision. Letting them get baptized at eight to appease grandparents or friends at school was a rather benign and safe lesson in autonomy. You want to teach your daughter to think for herself and in the long run she won’t disappoint (and unlike some devout believers) your love and acceptance of your daughter won’t change if she decides she likes to go to church (just unlikely if she thinks for herself and has you to come home to after Sunday School to discuss things with.)

So that is my two bits.

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]]> By: Jonathan Blake http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-75 Jonathan Blake Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:08:17 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-75 I'm always the last belle to the ball! Personally, if this were to come up with my children, I would ask them nonconfrontationally why they want to be baptized. I would help them to understand what baptism really is intended to mean (not just a club initiation). I would ask them to explain the basic beliefs. I wouldn't give my consent until I felt that my children understood in a significant way what they were getting into, that they were doing it because of true belief, that they understood what else was out there, had heard some of my concerns with Mormon beliefs, etc. They would probably be pretty old before I was satisfied. :) I’m always the last belle to the ball!

Personally, if this were to come up with my children, I would ask them nonconfrontationally why they want to be baptized. I would help them to understand what baptism really is intended to mean (not just a club initiation). I would ask them to explain the basic beliefs. I wouldn’t give my consent until I felt that my children understood in a significant way what they were getting into, that they were doing it because of true belief, that they understood what else was out there, had heard some of my concerns with Mormon beliefs, etc. They would probably be pretty old before I was satisfied. :)

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]]> By: Hueffenhardt http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-49 Hueffenhardt Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:45:06 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-49 I look at this differently than Rogan. I believe that people can draw boundaries, even with pushy and persistent priesthood and auxiliary leaders. I don't believe that things will get out of hand, especially if the parent stays on top of things as Wendy has already been doing. They won't kidnap your daughter. They would wait until she is an adult before they would ask her to make secret oaths. And as I said before, even if things got really bad, you can have her name removed by writing a letter. But, I think the real heart of the matter is in making sure that the daughter understands what baptism means to her and to everyone else (extended family members, church members, etc). She (and you) need to fully understand her motives. Did someone say something to her? How would she feel among peers if she were never baptized? Be particularly watchful for if she has adopted the mindset that baptized people are better than non-baptized people. And make sure that she realizes that she does not have to do anything she does not want to do (attend Sunday meetings all the time, bear testimony, etc) and if she starts feeling pressure, she should tell you. The only other thing is to continue what you are doing by teaching her to question in her mind the things she is being taught and make sure she understands at an age appropriate level why you don't believe what Mormons believe. I think you could pull this off if she wants to and you are cautiously ok with it. I look at this differently than Rogan. I believe that people can draw boundaries, even with pushy and persistent priesthood and auxiliary leaders. I don’t believe that things will get out of hand, especially if the parent stays on top of things as Wendy has already been doing. They won’t kidnap your daughter. They would wait until she is an adult before they would ask her to make secret oaths. And as I said before, even if things got really bad, you can have her name removed by writing a letter.

But, I think the real heart of the matter is in making sure that the daughter understands what baptism means to her and to everyone else (extended family members, church members, etc). She (and you) need to fully understand her motives. Did someone say something to her? How would she feel among peers if she were never baptized? Be particularly watchful for if she has adopted the mindset that baptized people are better than non-baptized people. And make sure that she realizes that she does not have to do anything she does not want to do (attend Sunday meetings all the time, bear testimony, etc) and if she starts feeling pressure, she should tell you. The only other thing is to continue what you are doing by teaching her to question in her mind the things she is being taught and make sure she understands at an age appropriate level why you don’t believe what Mormons believe.

I think you could pull this off if she wants to and you are cautiously ok with it.

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]]> By: Rogan http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-48 Rogan Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:56:22 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-48 Hellmut, I think we are on exactly the same page. We both want our children to learn how to THINK. But if your young child wanted to experiment with a box of broken glass, you might have second thoughts about how to teach your child critical thinking when it comes to broken glass. The question is this -- is baptism into Mormonism at age 8 more like a box of broken glass, or more like a box of thin mints? Hellmut,

I think we are on exactly the same page. We both want our children to learn how to THINK. But if your young child wanted to experiment with a box of broken glass, you might have second thoughts about how to teach your child critical thinking when it comes to broken glass.

The question is this — is baptism into Mormonism at age 8 more like a box of broken glass, or more like a box of thin mints?

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]]> By: Hellmut http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-47 Hellmut Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:32:02 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-47 I agree with Wendy that prohibitions would be counterproductive. There are a lot that parents can do in terms of teaching critical thinking skills and to encourage skepticism. Asking questions is always productive. When my children were two and a half, I would create situations where they would challenge what I was saying. For example, in the car I would sing out: "There is the subway station. Fort Totten!" and my daughter would sing back: "Noooo! College Park!" It's a playful way to teach them that they can think for themselves rather than submitting to authority figures. I also spend a lot of time explaining my reasons to children. The trade off is that it takes a lot more effort to change behavior but in the process the children learn how to think. In matters of religion, it's good to explain one's views in terms of values. When children understand the relationship between values and views then they will be able to argue their view themselves. Besides attending a variety of religious services, children can also learn about religion in documentaries about history. My son, for example, loves Greek mythology. He knows their most important Gods and wants to be an archeologist. We get all the materials, books and DVDs, in the local library. I agree with Wendy that prohibitions would be counterproductive. There are a lot that parents can do in terms of teaching critical thinking skills and to encourage skepticism.

Asking questions is always productive. When my children were two and a half, I would create situations where they would challenge what I was saying.

For example, in the car I would sing out: “There is the subway station. Fort Totten!” and my daughter would sing back: “Noooo! College Park!”

It’s a playful way to teach them that they can think for themselves rather than submitting to authority figures.

I also spend a lot of time explaining my reasons to children. The trade off is that it takes a lot more effort to change behavior but in the process the children learn how to think.

In matters of religion, it’s good to explain one’s views in terms of values. When children understand the relationship between values and views then they will be able to argue their view themselves.

Besides attending a variety of religious services, children can also learn about religion in documentaries about history. My son, for example, loves Greek mythology. He knows their most important Gods and wants to be an archeologist. We get all the materials, books and DVDs, in the local library.

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]]> By: chanson http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-46 chanson Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:07:04 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-46 Actually, I think there's a real benefit in making sure that your chidren are exposed to different belief systems when they're young. Actually, I think there’s a real benefit in making sure that your chidren are exposed to different belief systems when they’re young.

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]]> By: WendyP http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/03/12/a-symbolic-rite-of-passage/comment-page-1/#comment-45 WendyP Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:35:14 +0000 http://plaza.kolobcafe.com/?p=12#comment-45 <i>Do you still SORT OF believe in Mormonism?</i> No. I've been inactive since 1990 (right after my temple wedding that freaked me out). I've been actively studying the religion since 2003 and am quite convinced it is a man-made fraud. <i>If your daughter’s friends practiced Scientology, would you let your eight-year-old child join that religion as a symbolic gesture?</i> Good point. I really have no great fear of Scientology or Mormonism. I don't think *casually* associating with either one would be detrimental. Maybe by exposing her to it (and other religions) will keep her from becoming a zealot it the future. Kids love to rebel. I can just imagine me insisting she stay away from the LDS church her whole childhood, only to have her meet a nice LDS boy as a teen and completely write me off as a heretic as form of rebellion. Yikes! Do you still SORT OF believe in Mormonism?

No. I’ve been inactive since 1990 (right after my temple wedding that freaked me out). I’ve been actively studying the religion since 2003 and am quite convinced it is a man-made fraud.

If your daughter’s friends practiced Scientology, would you let your eight-year-old child join that religion as a symbolic gesture?

Good point. I really have no great fear of Scientology or Mormonism. I don’t think *casually* associating with either one would be detrimental. Maybe by exposing her to it (and other religions) will keep her from becoming a zealot it the future. Kids love to rebel. I can just imagine me insisting she stay away from the LDS church her whole childhood, only to have her meet a nice LDS boy as a teen and completely write me off as a heretic as form of rebellion. Yikes!

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